Naude: You speak about the whole of life. When we look about us there is so much disorder everywhere; it seems that people are so confused. In the world we see that there is war, ecological disorder, political and social disorder, crime, and all the evils of indusrialization and overpopulation. And it seems that the more people try to solve these problems the more they augment. Then there is man himself, who is full of problems. He has not only the problems of the world about him, but is full of problems inwardly - loneliness, despair, jealousy, anger - all this we may call confusion. And presently he dies. Now we have always been told that there is something else, which has variously been called God, eternity, creation. And about this man knows nothing. He has tried to live for this, in relation to this; but it has again made problems. It seems from what you have said so many times that one must find a way of dealing with these three sets of problems, these three aspects of life at the same time, because these are the problems confronting man. Is there a way to ask the question properly so that it will answer these three sets of problems at the same time?
     Krishnamurti: First of all, Sir, why do we make this division? Or is there only one movement which must be taken on the wave itself? So first let's find out why we have divided this whole existence into the world outside of me, the world inside of me, and something beyond me. Does this division exist because of the chaos outwardly and are we only concerned with the outer chaos, and totally neglect the inner chaos? Not finding a solution for the outer, or for the inner, we then try to find a solution in a belief, in the divine?
     Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: So in asking a question of this kind, are we dealing with the three things separately, or as a total movement?
     Naude: How can we make them into a unitary movement? How are they related? What is the action in man which will make them the same?
     Krishnamurti: I wouldn't come to that yet. I would ask: why has man divided the world, his whole existence, into these three categories? Why? - and from there move. Now why have I, as a human being, divided the world outside of me from the world inside me, and from the world which I am trying to grasp - of which I know nothing - and to which I give all my despairing hope?
     Naude: Right.
     Krishnamurti: Now why do I do this? Tentatively we are asking: is it that we have not been able to solve the outer with its chaos, confusion, destruction, brutality, violence and all the horrors that are going on, and therefore we turn to the inner and hope thereby to solve the outer? And not being able to solve the inner chaos, the inner insufficiency, the inner brutality, violence and all the rest of it, not being able to solve anything there either, then we move away from both, the outer and the inner, to some other dimension?
     Naude: Yes, it is like that. That is what we do.
     Krishnamurti: That is what is happening all the time around us and in us.
     Naude: Yes. There are the problems outside which engender the problems inside. Not being able to deal with either, or both, we create the hope of some other, some third state, which we call God.
     Krishnamurti: Yes, an outside agency.
     Naude: An outside agency which will be the consolation, the final solution. But it is also a fact that there are things which are really outer problems: the roof leaks, the sky is full of pollution, the rivers are drying up, there are such problems. And there are wars - they are visible outer problems. There are also problems which we think to be inner problems, our secret and closed longings, fears and worries.
     Krishnamurti: Yes.
     Naude: There is the world, and there is man's reaction to it, man's living in it. And so there are these two entities - at least in a practical sort of way we can say there are. And so probably the trying to solve practical problems overflows into the inner state of man and engenders problems there.
     Krishnamurti: That means we are still keeping the outer and the inner as two separate movements.
     Naude: Yes, we are. We do.
     Krishnamurti: And I feel that is a totally wrong approach. The roof does leak and the world is overpopulated, there is pollution, there are wars, there is every kind of mischief going on. And not being able to solve that we turn inward; not being able to solve the inward issues we turn to something outer, still further away from all this. Whereas if we could treat the whole of this existence as one unitary movement, then perhaps we would be able to solve all these problems intelligently and reasonably and in order.
     Naude: Yes. It seems that is what you speak about. Would you mind telling us how these three problems are really one thing?
     Krishnamurti: I am coming to that, I am coming to it. The world outside of me is created by me - not the trees, not the clouds, the bees and the beauty of the landscape - but human existence in relationship, which is called society, that is created by you and by me. So the world is me and I am the world. I think that is the first thing that must be established: not as an intellectual or an abstract fact, but in actual feeling, in actual realization. This is a fact, not a supposition, not an intellectual concept, but it is a fact that the world is me and I am the world. The world being the society in which I live, with its culture, morality, inequality, all the chaos that is going on in society, that is myself in action. And the culture is what I have created and what I am caught in. I think that is an irrevocable and an absolute fact.
     Naude: Yes. How is it that people don't see this enough? We have politicians, we have ecologists, we have economists, we have soldiers all trying to solve the outside problems simply as outer problems.
     Krishnamurti: Probably because of a lack of the right kind of education: specialization, the desire to conquer and go to the moon and play golf there, and so on and so on! We always want to alter the outer hoping thereby to change the inner. "Create the right environment" - the communists have said it a hundred times - "then the human mind will change according to that."
     Naude: That is what they say. In fact, every great university, with all its departments, with all its specialists, one could almost say that these great universities are founded and built on the belief that the world can be changed by a certain amount of specialized knowledge in different departments.
     Krishnamurti: Yes. I think we miss this basic thing, which is: the world is me and I am the world. I think that feeling, not as an idea, that feeling brings a totally different way of looking at this whole problem.
     Naude: It is an enormous revolution. To see the problem as one problem, the problem of man and not the problem of his environment, that is an enormous step, which people will not take.
     Krishnamurti: People won't take any step. They are used to this outward organization and disregard totally what is happening inwardly. So when one realizes that the world is me and I am the world, then my action is not separative, is not the individual opposed to the community; nor the importance of the individual and his salvation. When one realizes that the world is me and I am the world, then whatever action takes place, whatever change takes place, that will change the whole of the consciousness of man.
     Naude: Would you like to explain that? Krishnamurti: I, as a human being, realize that the world is me and I am the world: realize, feel deeply committed, am passionately aware of this fact.
     Naude: Yes, that my action is in fact the world; my behaviour is the only world there is, because the events in the world are behaviour. And behaviour is the inner. So the inner and the outer are one because the events of history, the events of life, are in fact this point of contact between the inner and the outer. It is in fact the behaviour of man.
     Krishnamurti: So the consciousness of the world is my consciousness.
     Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: My consciousness is the world. Now the crisis is in this consciousness, not in organization, not in bettering the roads - tearing down the hills to build more roads.
     Naude: Bigger tanks, intercontinental missiles.
     Krishnamurti: My consciousness is the world and the consciousness of the world is me. When there is a change in this consciousness it affects the whole consciousness of the world. I don't know if you see that?
     Naude: It is an extraordinary fact.
     Krishnamurti: It is a fact.
     Naude: It is consciousness that is in disorder; there is no disorder anywhere else.
     Krishnamurti: Obviously!
     Naude: Therefore the ills of the world are the ills of human consciousness, and the ills of human consciousness are my ills, my malady, my disorder.
     Krishnamurti: Now when I realize that my consciousness is the consciousness of the world, and the consciousness of the world is me, whatever change that takes place in me affects the whole of consciousness.
     Naude: To this people always say: that's all very well, I may change, but there will still be a war in Indo-China! Krishnamurti: Quite right, there will be.
     Naude: And ghettos and overpopulation.
     Krishnamurti: Of course, there will be. But if each one of us saw the truth of this, that the consciousness of the world is mine, and mine is the world's; and if each one of us felt the responsibility of that - the politician, the scientist, the engineer, the bureaucrat, the business man - if everybody felt that, what then? And it is our job to make them feel this; that is the function of the religious man, surely?
     Naude: This is an enormous thing.
     Krishnamurti: Wait, let me go on. So then it is one movement. It is not an individual movement and his salvation. It is the salvation, if you like to use that word, of the whole of man's consciousness.
     Naude: The wholeness, and the health of consciousness itself, which is one thing and in which is contained what appears to be the outer, and what appears to be the inner.
     Krishnamurti: That's right. Let's keep to that one point.
     Naude: So what you are speaking about is in fact that health, that sanity, and that wholeness of consciousness, which always has been in fact an indivisible entity.
     Krishnamurti: Yes, that's right. Now when the people who want to create a different kind of world, the educators, the writers, the organisers, when they realize the world as it is now is their responsibility, then the whole of the consciousness of man begins to change. Which is what is happening in another direction, only they are emphasizing organization, division; they are doing exactly the same thing.
     Naude: In a negative way.
     Krishnamurti: In a destructive way. So from that the question arises: can this human consciousness, which is me - which is the community, which is the society, which is the culture, which is all the horrors that are produced by me in the context of the society, in the culture which is me - can this consciousness undergo a radical change? That is the question. Not escape into the supposed divine, not escape. Because when we understand this change in consciousness the divine is there, you don't have to seek it.
     Naude: Would you please explain what this change in consciousness consists of?
     Krishnamurti: That's what we are going to talk about now.
     Naude: And then perhaps we can ask about the divine if it arises.
     Krishnamurti: (Pause) First of all, is there any possibility of a change in consciousness? Or is any change made consciously no change at all? To talk about a change in consciousness implies changing from this to that.
     Naude: And both this and that are within consciousness.
     Krishnamurti: That is what I want to establish first. That when we say there must be a change in consciousness, it is still within the field of consciousness.
     Naude: The way we see the trouble, and the way we see the solution, which we call change - that is all within the same area.
     Krishnamurti: All within the same area and therefore no change at all. That is, the content of consciousness is consciousness and the two are not separate. Let's be clear on that point too. Consciousness is made up of all the things that have been collected by man as experience, as knowledge, as misery, confusion, destruction, violence - all that is consciousness.
     Naude: Plus so-called solutions.
     Krishnamurti: God, no-God, various theories about God, all that is consciousness. When we talk about change in consciousness we are still changing the pieces from one corner to the other.
     Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: Moving one quality into another corner of the field.
     Naude: Juggling with the contents of this huge box. Krishnamurti: Yes, juggling with the contents. And therefore...
     Naude: We are changing variables in the same set of things.
     Krishnamurti: That's right. You have put it perfectly, better than I have. When we talk about changing, we are really thinking of juggling with the contents - right? Now that implies a juggler and the thing with which he is juggling. But it is still within the field of consciousness.
     Naude: There are two questions which arise. Are you saying that there is no consciousness at all outside of the content of consciousness? And secondly, that there is no entity at all to juggle there is no entity called `me' outside of this content of consciousness?
     Krishnamurti: Obviously not.
     Naude: These are two big statements, Sir. Would you be kind enough to explain them?
     Krishnamurti: What is the first question?
     Naude: The first thing you are saying, if I have understood correctly, is: that this consciousness which we are discussing, which is all we are and all we have, and which we have seen is the problem itself, you are saying that this consciousness is its very content, and that there is nothing to be called consciousness outside of the content of consciousness?
     Krishnamurti: Absolutely right.
     Naude: Are you saying, outside of man's problems, outside of his misery, outside of his thinking, outside of the formulations of his mind, there is nothing at all we call consciousness?
     Krishnamurti: Absolutely right.
     Naude: This is a big statement. Would you explain this? We all think - and this has been postulated by Indian religions since the beginning of time - that there is a super-consciousness outside of this shell which is the consciousness we are talking about.
     Krishnamurti: To find out if there is something beyond this consciousness, I must understand the content of this conscious- ness. The mind must go beyond itself. Then I shall find out if there is something other than this or not. But to stipulate that there is has no meaning, it is just a speculation.
     Naude: So are you saying that what we commonly call consciousness, and what we are talking about, is the very content oF this consciousness? The container and contained are an indivisible thing?
     Krishnamurti: That's right.
     Naude: And the second point you are making is: that there is no entity to decide, to will, and to juggle, when the contents to be juggled are absent.
     Krishnamurti: That is, my consciousness is the consciousness of the world, and the consciousness of the world is me. This is a truth, not just my invention or dependent on your acceptance. It is an absolute truth. Also the content is consciousness: without the content there is no consciousness. Now when we want to change the content we are juggling.
     Naude: The content is juggling itself, because you have a third point, that there is nobody outside of this content to do any juggling at all.
     Krishnamurti: Quite right.
     Naude: So the juggler and the content are one, and the container and the content are one.
     Krishnamurti: The thinker who within this consciousness says that he must change, is consciousness trying to change. I think that is fairly clear.
     Naude: So that the world, the consciousness and the entity who supposedly will change it, are all the same entity, masquerading, as it were in three different roles.
     Krishnamurti: If that is so, then what is a human being to do to bring about a total emptying of the content of consciousness? How is this particular consciousness, which is me and the world with all its miseries, how is that to undergo complete change? How is the mind - which is consciousness, with all its content, with the accumulated knowledge of the past - how is that mind to empty itself of all its content?
     Naude: But people will say, hearing what you have said, understanding it imperfectly, they will say: can that consciousness be emptied, and when that consciousness is emptied, supposing this were possible, doesn't that reduce one to a state of considerable vagueness and inertia?
     Krishnamurti: On the contrary. To have come to this point requires a great deal of enquiry, a great deal of reason, logic, and with it comes intelligence.
     Naude: Because some people may think that the empty consciousness, which you speak about, is something like the consciousness of the child at birth.
     Krishnamurti: No, Sir, not at all. Let's go slowly at this, step by step. Let's begin again. My consciousness is the consciousness of the world. The world is me and the content of my consciousness is the content of the world. The content of consciousness is consciousness itself.
     Naude: And also that is the entity who says he is conscious.
     Krishnamurti: Now I am asking myself, realizing I am that, what is then changed?
     Naude: What is changed which will solve these three sets of problems that are really one?
     Krishnamurti: What is implied by change? What is implied by revolution? - not physical revolution.
     Naude: We have gone beyond that.
     Krishnamurti: Physical revolution is the most absurd, primitive, unintelligent destruction.
     Naude: It is fragmentation in this consciousness.
     Krishnamurti: Yes.
     Naude: Are you asking what it is which will restore order to this consciousness? - an order which is whole.
     Krishnamurti: Can there be order within this consciousness? Naude: Is that the next step?
     Krishnamurti: That is what you are asking.
     Naude: Yes. Since we see that the disorder, which is the sorrow and the suffering, is the disorder in this indivisible consciousness, the next question must be: what are we going to do about it?
     Krishnamurti: Yes.
     Naude: And since there is no entity who can do something about it...
     Krishnamurti: Wait, don't jump to that immediately.
     Naude: Because we have seen that the disorder is the entity.
     Krishnamurti: Do we realize that? No. Do we realize that the thinker is part of this consciousness and is not a separate entity outside this consciousness? Do we realize that the observer, seeing the content, examining, analysing, looking at it all, is the content itself? That the observer is the content?
     Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: But stating a truth is one thing, the realization of it is another.
     Naude: That's right. I think we do not fully understand that there is no entity separate from this thing we are trying to change.
     Krishnamurti: When we talk of change it seems to imply that there is an entity separate within the consciousness, who can bring about a transformation.
     Naude: We think that somehow we can step aside from the mess and look at it and juggle with it. We always tell ourselves, "Well, I'm still here to do something about it." And so we juggle more and more.
     Krishnamurti: More mess, more confusion.
     Naude: A change of decor and things get worse.
     Krishnamurti: The consciousness of the world is my consciousness. In that consciousness is all the content of human endeavour, human misery, human cruelty, mischief, all human activities are within that consciousness. Within that consciousness man has brought about this entity which says, "I am separate from my consciousness." The observer there says, "I am different from the thing observed." The thinker says, "My thoughts are different from me." First, is that so?
     Naude: We all believe that the two entities are different. We say to ourselves, "I must not be angry, I must not be sorrowful, I must improve, I must change myself." We are saying this either tacitly or consciously all the time.
     Krishnamurti: Because we think these two are separate. Now we are trying to point out that they are not separate, that they are one, because if there is no thought at all there is no thinker.
     Naude: That is right.
     Krishnamurti: If there is nothing observed there is no observer.
     Naude: There are a hundred observers and a hundred thinkers during the course of the day.
     Krishnamurti: I am just saying: is that so? I observe that red-tailed hawk flying by. I see it. When I observe that bird, am I observing with the image I have about that bird, or am I merely observing? Is there only mere observation? If there is an image, which is words, memory and all the rest of it, then there is an observer watching the bird go by. If there is only observation, then there is no observer.
     Naude: Would you explain why there is an observer when I look at the bird with an image?
     Krishnamurti: Because the observer is the past. The observer is the censor, is the accumulated knowledge, experience, memory; that is the observer, with that he observes the world. His accumulated knowledge is different from your accumulated knowledge.
     Naude: Are you saying that this total consciousness which is the problem, is not different from the observer who is going to deal with it, and this would seem to bring us to a deadlock, because the thing we are trying to change is the person trying to change it? And the question is: what then?
     Krishnamurti: That is just it. If the observer is the observed, what is the nature of change in consciousness? That is what we are trying to find out. We realize that there must be a radical revolution in consciousness. How is this to take place? Is it to take place through the observer? When the observer is separate from the observed, then this change is merely juggling with the various contents of consciousness.
     Naude: That's right.
     Krishnamurti: Now let's go slowly. One realizes that the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought, that is a fact. Let's stop there a minute.
     Naude: Are you saying that the thinker is the totality of all these thoughts which create the confusion?
     Krishnamurti: The thinker is the thought, whether it is many, or one.
     Naude: But there is a difference, because the thinker thinks of himself as some sort of crystallized concrete entity. Even through this discussion, the thinker sees himself as the concrete entity to whom all these thoughts, all this confusion belongs.
     Krishnamurti: That concrete entity, as you say, is the result of thought.
     Naude: That concrete entity is...
     Krishnamurti: ...put together by thought.
     Naude: Put together by his thoughts.
     Krishnamurti: By thought, not "his", by thought.
     Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: And thought sees that there must be a change. This concrete entity, which is the result of thought, hopes to change the content.
     Naude: Itself.
     Krishnamurti: And so there is a battle between the observer and the observed. The battle consists of trying to control, change, shape, suppress, give a new shape, all that, that is the battle that goes on all the time in our life. But when the mind understands the truth that the observer, the experiencer, the thinker, is the thought, is the experience, is the observed, then what takes place? - knowing that there must be a radical change.
     Naude: That is a fact.
     Krishnamurti: And when the observer, who wants to change, realizes he is part of what has to be changed?
     Naude: That he is in fact a thief pretending to be a policeman to catch himself.
     Krishnamurti: Right. So what takes place?
     Naude: You see, Sir, people don't believe this; they say, "By exercising will I have stopped smoking, by exercising will I have got up earlier, I have lost weight and I have learnt languages; they say, "I am the master of my destiny, I can change" - everybody really believes this. Everybody believes that he is capable somehow of exercising will upon his own life, upon his own behaviour, and his own thinking.
     Krishnamurti: Which means, one has to understand the meaning of effort. What it is, why effort exists at all. Is that the way to bring about a transformation in consciousness? Through effort, through will?
     Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: Which means what? Change through conflict. When there is the operation of will, it is a form of resistance; to overcome, to suppress, to deny, to escape - all that is will in action. That means life is then a constant battle.
     Naude: Are you saying that simply one element in this consciousness is dominating another?
     Krishnamurti: Obviously. One fragment dominates another fragment.
     Naude: And that there is still conflict? There is still disorder by that very fact. Yes, this is clear. Krishnamurti: So, the central fact still remains. There must be a radical transformation in consciousness and of consciousness. Now, how is this to be brought about? That is the real question.
     Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: We have approached it by thinking that one fragment is superior to the rest, to the other fragments within the field of consciousness.
     Naude: Indeed we have.
     Krishnamurti: Now that fragment which we call superior, intelligence, intellect, reason, logic, is the product of the many other fragments. One fragment has assumed authority over other fragments. But it is still a fragment and therefore there is a battle between it and the many other fragments. So is it possible to see that this fragmentation does not solve our problems?
     Naude: Because it causes the division and the conflict, which right from the start was our problem.
     Krishnamurti: That is, when there is division between man and woman there is conflict. When there is a division between Germany and England or Russia, there is conflict.
     Naude: And all this is division within consciousness itself. Also, the exercise of will upon consciousness is again a division within consciousness.
     Krishnamurti: So one has to be free of the idea that through will you can change the content. That is important to understand.
     Naude: Yes, that the exercise of will is simply the tyranny of one fragment over another.
     Krishnamurti: That's simple. One also realizes that to be free of will is to be free of this fragmentation.
     Naude: But religions in the world have always called upon will to come in and do something.
     Krishnamurti: Yes. But we are denying the whole of that. Naude: Yes.
     Krishnamurti: So what is a mind to do, or not to do, when it sees will is not the way, when it sees that one fragment taking charge over another fragment is still fragmentation and therefore conflict? - and therefore still within the field of misery. Then what is such a mind to do?
     Naude: Yes, this is really the question.
     Krishnamurti: Now, for such a mind is there anything to do?
     Naude: When you say that, one says, "If there is nothing to do then the circus goes on."
     Krishnamurti: No, Sir. Look! The circus goes on only when there is the exercise of will.
     Naude: Are you saying that the circus that we have been discussing and trying to change, is in fact made up of will?
     Krishnamurti: My will against your will, and so on.
     Naude: My will against another part of me.
     Krishnamurti: And so on.
     Naude: My desire to smoke...
     Krishnamurti: That's just it. A mind which starts by saying, "I must change," realizes that one fragment asserting it must change is still in conflict with another fragment, which is part of consciousness. It realizes that. Therefore it also realizes that will, to which man has become accustomed, which he takes for granted is the only way to bring about change...
     Naude:...is not the factor of change.
     Krishnamurti: Is not the factor of change. Therefore such a mind has come to quite a different height.
     Naude: It has cleared up a great deal.
     Krishnamurti: A vast quantity of rubbish.
     Naude: It has cleared up the division between the inner and the outer; the division between consciousness and its content. It has cleared up also the division between the conscious entity and the consciousness belonging to him and the various fragments. And it has cleared up the division between different fragments in that consciousness.
     Krishnamurti: So what has happened? What has happened to the mind that has seen all this? Not theoretically but actually felt it and says, "No more will in my life". Which means no more resistance in my life.
     Naude: This is so extraordinary it is like finding the sky at the bottom, one day. It is such a great change, it is difficult to say what the extent of that change is.
     Krishnamurti: It has already taken place! That is my point.
     Naude: You are saying that there is no more will, there is no more effort, there is no more division between the outside and the inside...
     Krishnamurti: ...no more fragmentation within consciousness.
     Naude: No more fragmentation.
     Krishnamurti: That is very important to understand, Sir.
     Naude: No more observer separate from what he has observed.
     Krishnamurti: Which means what? No fragmentation within consciousness. Which means consciousness only exists when there is conflict between fragments.
     Naude: I am not sure that I have understood that. Consciousess is its fragments?
     Krishnamurti: Consciousness is its fragments and consciousness is the battle between the fragments.
     Naude: Are you saying that there are only fragments because they are in conflict, in battle? When they are not battling together they are not fragments, because they are not acting as parts. The acting of one part on another ceases. That is what it means when you say fragmentation. That is what fragmentation
     Krishnamurti: See what has taken place! Naude: The fragments disappear when they are not acting against each other.
     Krishnamurti: Naturally! When Pakistan and India...
     Naude: ...are no longer fighting, there is no more Pakistan and India.
     Krishnamurti: Naturally.
     Naude: Are you saying that that is the change?
     Krishnamurti: Wait, I don't know yet. We'll go into it. A human mind has realized that the world is "me" and I am the world, my consciousness is the consciousness of the world, and the world's consciousness is me. The content of consciousness with all its miseries and so on is consciousness. And within that consciousness there are a thousand fragmentations. One fragment of those many fragments becomes the authority, the censor, the observer, the examiner, the thinker.
     Naude: The boss.
     Krishnamurti: The boss. And so he maintains fragmentation. See the importance of this! The moment he assumes the authority, he must maintain fragmentation.
     Naude: Yes, obviously. Because it is a part of consciousness acting on the rest of consciousness.
     Krishnamurti: Therefore he must maintain conflict. And conflict is consciousness.
     Naude: You have said that the fragments are consciousness; and are you now saying that the fragments are in fact the content?
     Krishnamurti: Of course.
     Naude: Fragments are conflict. There is no fragment without conflict?
     Krishnamurti: When is consciousness active?
     Naude: When it is in conflict.
     Krishnamurti: Obviously. Otherwise there is freedom, free- dom to observe. So radical revolution in consciousness, and of consciousness, takes place when there is no conflict at all.